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Post by Toto Gamboa on Sept 22, 2009 2:21:15 GMT
Hi guys ... I still can't figure out some of 50D behaviour but I seem to notice I get correct focus when I am on AI-Servo mode than when on Single-Shot AF on still captures. I noticed that my BIFs are sharper than my still shots. I have situations where I could taken home a perfectly executed shot as the bird perched nicely still on a wind less afternoon, allowed me to get close to setup on a tripod, remote control and my exposures but as I review the shots ... all blurred. Not even one came out fine. All these are done using Single Shot AF. I think Den is experiencing the same problem with his rig. ANybody with a 50D and 400mm f5.6 experiencing the same? Or is there something wrong with what we do? My last few still shots were done using AI-Servo and seems the problem is lessened. Got no clue as to why all these.  |
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Post by Dennis Alfaro on Sept 22, 2009 10:19:31 GMT
I think Den is experiencing the same problem with his rig. ANybody with a 50D and 400mm f5.6 experiencing the same? Or is there something wrong with what we do? Toto is right, i have experienced the same problem regarding the one-shot af. i can focus the subject and lock it with tripod support but after viewing it on the lcd, all blurred. Tried also the AI-focus, still got the same problem until i tried the AI-servo. Using the AI-servo on still subjects like Toto have said got me some high chances of getting the shot. Still thinking if its in the lens or the body (50D) |
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Post by Neon Rosell II on Sept 22, 2009 11:36:10 GMT
Toto / Den, AFAIK, when using single shot once the focus is achieved when you don't click the shutter the focus is locked, so when you or the bird moves especially wide open your focus will definitely be off. You have to click the shutter when you achieve focus on your subject delaying it will cause OOF shots. My two cents.  With remote shutter and single shot AF you need to be looking at the VF to see if, when you half press the shutter it focused on your subject. Without watching the VF and pressing the shutter you won't know if it focused on your intended subject. Same when you achieve focus then you release and press the shutter again, it's not always 100% that it will focus on the same point. |
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Post by Romy Ocon on Sept 22, 2009 11:55:43 GMT
One shot AF at static birds should be easier to execute well than AI servo at BIFs. Looks like your and Den's gear were working well in one-shot when we did the battery test during the 7D sortie. I suggest you post an uncropped full frame (resized to say 1200x800) of a problem shot so we can try to isolate the issue. Keep the EXIF intact so we can readily see shooting info. Hi guys ... I still can't figure out some of 50D behaviour but I seem to notice I get correct focus when I am on AI-Servo mode than when on Single-Shot AF on still captures. I noticed that my BIFs are sharper than my still shots. I have situations where I could taken home a perfectly executed shot as the bird perched nicely still on a wind less afternoon, allowed me to get close to setup on a tripod, remote control and my exposures but as I review the shots ... all blurred. Not even one came out fine. All these are done using Single Shot AF. I think Den is experiencing the same problem with his rig. ANybody with a 50D and 400mm f5.6 experiencing the same? Or is there something wrong with what we do? My last few still shots were done using AI-Servo and seems the problem is lessened. Got no clue as to why all these. |
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Post by Toto Gamboa on Sept 22, 2009 15:50:18 GMT
Toto / Den, AFAIK, when using single shot once the focus is achieved when you don't click the shutter the focus is locked, so when you or the bird moves especially wide open your focus will definitely be off. You have to click the shutter when you achieve focus on your subject delaying it will cause OOF shots. My two cents. With remote shutter and single shot AF you need to be looking at the VF to see if, when you half press the shutter it focused on your subject. Without watching the VF and pressing the shutter you won't know if it focused on your intended subject. Same when you achieve focus then you release and press the shutter again, it's not always 100% that it will focus on the same point. Thanks Neon. I am not sure if I am doing things like you do but I'll try to observe my shooting behaviour if I do all these things that causes OOF shots. |
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Post by Toto Gamboa on Sept 22, 2009 16:02:34 GMT
One shot AF at static birds should be easier to execute well than AI servo at BIFs. Looks like your and Den's gear were working well in one-shot when we did the battery test during the 7D sortie. I suggest you post an uncropped full frame (resized to say 1200x800) of a problem shot so we can try to isolate the issue. Keep the EXIF intact so we can readily see shooting info. Hi guys ... I still can't figure out some of 50D behaviour but I seem to notice I get correct focus when I am on AI-Servo mode than when on Single-Shot AF on still captures. I noticed that my BIFs are sharper than my still shots. I have situations where I could taken home a perfectly executed shot as the bird perched nicely still on a wind less afternoon, allowed me to get close to setup on a tripod, remote control and my exposures but as I review the shots ... all blurred. Not even one came out fine. All these are done using Single Shot AF. I think Den is experiencing the same problem with his rig. ANybody with a 50D and 400mm f5.6 experiencing the same? Or is there something wrong with what we do? My last few still shots were done using AI-Servo and seems the problem is lessened. Got no clue as to why all these. Thanks Mastah. Here is an example. The shot is full frame. I took like 17 shots of this Shrike just near where I am standing. I was on a tripod and remote cable and the bird allowed me to shoot for as long as I want. I used the top most focus point on this shot. I am aware that the DOF is pretty thin in this situation so I went f9 to make sure my DOF improves.  |
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Post by Romy Ocon on Sept 22, 2009 22:54:40 GMT
Can't see the photo, Toto?
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Post by Toto Gamboa on Sept 22, 2009 23:49:12 GMT
Can't see the photo, Toto? oops sorry  missed the link. I corrected it already. |
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Post by Romy Ocon on Sept 23, 2009 0:03:57 GMT
Can't see the photo, Toto? oops sorry missed the link. I corrected it already. Ok I see it now. I suppose that's the FF. Kinda tough to check out the details because there are no objects at the boundaries of the DOF. Is it possible to post a 100% crop of the whole bird (portrait-type)? |
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Post by Toto Gamboa on Sept 23, 2009 0:18:56 GMT
Thanks Mastah. Here is the 100% crop. The first one was full frame. The topmost focus point is on the eye of the shrike. With this shot, I can't seen to find an indication too whether it front or back focused.  |
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Post by Romy Ocon on Sept 23, 2009 1:03:34 GMT
1. Ok, I think the focus is where it should be - on the eye/shoulder area.
2. Everything seems to be soft, and the only variable that can cause such across the frame is shake, most probably due to mirror slap. Focus issue has local, not global effect.
3. Even at your relatively fast shutter speed of 1/250 sec, mirror slap can be an issue because your total gear weight is quite light compared to the heavy-duty mirror of the 50D. If a heavy lens (like a Sigmonster or 600 f4) was used, the effect of the mirror slap should be less at 1/250 sec even without IS.
4. I'd have shot with the classic long lens technique (left hand on the lens, face against the VF and careful shutter press) in your situation to dampen mirror slap. If I wish to use a remote switch, I'd utilize Live View (where the mirror is up) or MLU.
5. To confirm my diagnosis, you can shoot an inanimate object at 1/250 sec using a tripod. Shoot with the classic LLT, with remote switch + LV, and with remote switch without LV/MLU. See if you can prove that it's mirror slap.
Welcome to the challenging world of long lens photography, Toto. ;D
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Post by Toto Gamboa on Sept 23, 2009 1:56:03 GMT
2. Everything seems to be soft, and the only variable that can cause such across the frame is shake, most probably due to mirror slap. Focus issue has local, not global effect. I suspect this is the cause. I can actually detect in the VF the vibration caused by the mirror slap. I havent tried shooting out there in the field while the mirror is open. Done this only in testing  But I am quite happy with the results I had with Liveview. 3. Even at your relatively fast shutter speed of 1/250 sec, mirror slap can be an issue because your total gear weight is quite light compared to the heavy-duty mirror of the 50D. If a heavy lens (like a Sigmonster or 600 f4) was used, the effect of the mirror slap should be less at 1/250 sec even without IS. Dennis and I have actually thought of this. When I was using the Sigma 150-500, this doesnt seem to be the problem but I thought that rig is almost a kilo heavier than what I have now. So this factor surely has contributed to this problem. Even a gentle breeze can really shake my rig. There is one problem I have identified that is realted to this. My tripod is only rated to load 5k max. It is light and very shaky. Been planning to get a new one for some time now but I thought to use my current to see if it would be enough but I think now it is not enough. I better get a new one. SOmething a bit heavier perhaps haha. 4. I'd have shot with the classic long lens technique (left hand on the lens, face against the VF and careful shutter press) in your situation to dampen mirror slap. If I wish to use a remote switch, I'd utilize Live View (where the mirror is up) or MLU. 5. To confirm my diagnosis, you can shoot an inanimate object at 1/250 sec using a tripod. Shoot with the classic LLT, with remote switch + LV, and with remote switch without LV/MLU. See if you can prove that it's mirror slap. As Neon said, this might be a suspect. I'll try to observe how i execute my shooting. I usually hold the lens hood when I shoot on a tripod but I guess I'll do some experiments to validate this. Hopefully this is the only problem as it is much easier to address. Welcome to the challenging world of long lens photography, Toto. ;D Quite a challenge indeed |
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Post by Toto Gamboa on Sept 24, 2009 14:04:54 GMT
Hi Mastah, Neon I guess the problem is really the shake caused by a mirror slap. I experimented this morning and I think you both are right that shake is the culprit. What I did this morning validated your assessment. Here is what I did, I shot some feathers at just about the MFD and the lens wide open, on a tripod with a remote control. In the 5 (one shot AF) shots I made, 3 frames were a bit off. I repeated the sequence and I consistently am getting the same result. Next, I placed a 2-kilo bag of rice on top of my rig to dampen the vibrations and execute the same sequence, and voila ... perfect 5. I repeated the same sequence 2 more times and not a single frame were missed. I then removed the remote control and shoot it with my fingers on the shutter and same result. I got everything cleared. Yey! I'll have a better tripod next time. But the trick would be the 2 kilo rice bag! I got to figure out how to get one designed for birding Can't wait to bird again to test these findings! Big thanks to both of you! |
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Post by alainpascua on Sept 24, 2009 14:12:36 GMT
Toto, I've been following this thread as I will surely encounter this problem once I got my 400mm. How then do we place a 2kg rice bag on top of the lens while birding?  Or can we cover the lens with 2-3kg of metal to make it stable to counter the mirror flap? ;D Do Tonji and Sylvia also encounter this kind of problem as they also use 50D and 400mm? Ding perhaps? But the 2 kilogram of rice is a rather good idea. After birding, we can cook it to have good lunch! |
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Post by alainpascua on Sept 24, 2009 14:17:18 GMT
Will this be the same problem if the 7D will be the body attached to the 400mm, instead of the 50D? ;D
I'm not suggesting anything, Toto... just wondering! ;D
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Post by mantarey on Sept 24, 2009 14:37:55 GMT
Toto, I've been following this thread as I will surely encounter this problem once I got my 400mm. How then do we place a 2kg rice bag on top of the lens while birding? Or can we cover the lens with 2-3kg of metal to make it stable to counter the mirror flap? ;D Do Tonji and Sylvia also encounter this kind of problem as they also use 50D and 400mm? Ding perhaps? But the 2 kilogram of rice is a rather good idea. After birding, we can cook it to have good lunch! IMHO, you can do away with adding more weight to your setup by practicing the classic LLT as explained by Mastah Romy. It would help a lot if you will press your face a little harder against the camera while the left hand is placed on the hood. Also try to depress the shutter very smoothly while exhaling gently. I heard it's actually the blood in your hand and face that absorbs the vibration from the mirror slap. A good sturdy tripod and head is also needed if you want to have more keepers. Just my 2 cents. |
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Post by Toto Gamboa on Sept 24, 2009 15:03:22 GMT
Toto, I've been following this thread as I will surely encounter this problem once I got my 400mm. I pray not! haha How then do we place a 2kg rice bag on top of the lens while birding? Or can we cover the lens with 2-3kg of metal to make it stable to counter the mirror flap? ;D Hehehe. I have to figure this out yet. Whatever works as long as i get a lot of keepers. sabi nga ni edu, I would probably need a chair hehe. Do Tonji and Sylvia also encounter this kind of problem as they also use 50D and 400mm? Ding perhaps? I am curious to know too if they are experiencing the same. Well in reality, my keepers have increased since I shifted gears. And I am quite happy with the turn out of keepers despite issues like these. When I get it right, things are really so sharp. I want to know more of the new system so the chances of wastage is minimized But the 2 kilogram of rice is a rather good idea. After birding, we can cook it to have good lunch! hehehhe. That is a nice idea. We should bird and have a picnic sometimes haha. |
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Post by Toto Gamboa on Sept 24, 2009 15:04:27 GMT
Will this be the same problem if the 7D will be the body attached to the 400mm, instead of the 50D? ;D I'm not suggesting anything, Toto... just wondering! ;D hehehe. Let us keep the wondering alive for a moment! ;D |
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Post by Toto Gamboa on Sept 24, 2009 15:08:17 GMT
Toto, I've been following this thread as I will surely encounter this problem once I got my 400mm. How then do we place a 2kg rice bag on top of the lens while birding? Or can we cover the lens with 2-3kg of metal to make it stable to counter the mirror flap? ;D Do Tonji and Sylvia also encounter this kind of problem as they also use 50D and 400mm? Ding perhaps? But the 2 kilogram of rice is a rather good idea. After birding, we can cook it to have good lunch! IMHO, you can do away with adding more weight to your setup by practicing the classic LLT as explained by Mastah Romy. It would help a lot if you will press your face a little harder against the camera while the left hand is placed on the hood. Also try to depress the shutter very smoothly while exhaling gently. I heard it's actually the blood in your hand and face that absorbs the vibration from the mirror slap. A good sturdy tripod and head is also needed if you want to have more keepers. Just my 2 cents. Thanks! I'd defintely try this Rey. First I have to get a good tripod so it can at least support some of the weight that I put on it, including the one added on an LLT. WIth my current tripod, I am worried it might give way and my gears would just crash to the ground. I remember Mark made a comment on my tripod's during the Baler sortie. |
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Post by Mark Itol on Sept 24, 2009 15:55:35 GMT
Been following this thread too and hopefully I'd be able to apply the tips discussed here once I get my 400mm. I remember Mark made a comment on my tripod's during the Baler sortie. Hi Toto. I'm no expert with these stuff but if I remember it correctly, the tripod's lowermost legs were relatively thin (as compared to other tripods of the same load capacity), which I believe is affecting the stability. |
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missed the link. I corrected it already.
But I am quite happy with the results I had with Liveview. 
Or can we cover the lens with 2-3kg of metal to make it stable to counter the mirror flap? ;D