Which immature munia?

[Romy Ocon]

A mixed flock of adult and immature Scaly-breasted and Chestnut Munias were feeding on the overgrown grasses at a vacant lot near our house this morning.

Being color-challenged, I always find it tough to differentiate the immature of these munias. Can anybody pin down the ID?

40D + 100-400 L IS, 400 mm, f/5.6, ISO 250, 1/500 sec, manual exposure, hand held:

[steve pryor]

for me juvenile atricapilla - I don't like the bill color supposedly the juveniles should have it lighter, but I have found photos of race jagori with the juveniles having this bill color, so, all things equal, since I feel that there is a certain shading around the head giving an incipient "hooded" effect and since there does not appear to be any paleness on the malars (which would have deposed for the punctulata cabanisi), then I tend to late juvenile atricapilla jagori for this one.

[Neon Rosell II]

I'll have a go on this one, for me it's Lonchura punctulata cabanisi

[Romy Ocon]

Thanks guys, now I'm even more confused! ;D

Neon, just curious why it looks like a punctulata to you?

[Bob Kaufman]

I think I'll go with atricapilla too. punctulata juvies usually have paler underparts.

[Neon Rosell II]

Lonchura atricapilla juvies have paler bill and lighter head. And most of all it doesn't look like this I'm only choosing from 2 and I eliminated the Chestnut Munia so it's definitely a Scaly-breasted Munia Lonchura punctulata cabanisi

Chesnut Munia Lonchura atricapilla - Juvenile

[Romy Ocon]

Hehe... ok guys, I'll put it in as atricapilla provisionally, as two of you went in that direction. Neon seems to be confident that it's a punctulata, so I'm open to revising the ID later if he can convince the other two with his case.

[steve pryor]

I went with atricapilla for the following reasons: more saturated with color ventrally (punctulata tends to be a lighter creamy-buff); no visible color difference of the malars and auriculars with the crown, nape, etc. - to the point where this bird appears to have an incipient (i.e., in the future, with further development) all dark head, which would be of course consistent with atricapilla - however, this is my own interpretation of the head coloration - not gospel). My principal objection to it being atricapilla (and as Neon correctly notes) is the bill coloration. However, race jagori ranges also in the Greater Sundas - and here is one: orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?p=7&action=searchresult&Bird_ID=1898&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

I do have Restall's Munias and Mannikins monograph and did have a good look through it.

In any case, I remain with thinking it atricapilla jagori.


EDIT: Anybody clicking on the OBI link may be confused by the taxonomy. The OBI uses a 1996 Duckworth list - sooner or later the taxonomy will be updated when all of the decade-long taxonomic upheaval is better elucidated. So, they are still using the pre-split taxonomy that would have atricapilla (implicitly therefore with the now associated to post-split atricapilla race jagori) as a race of malacca.

[Romy Ocon]

UPDATE - after a long filming of the Munias with a videocam this morning, I wish to confirm that the immature is indeed an atricapilla - a few immatures identical to the one in the photo were being fed by adult Chestnut Munias.

[Neon Rosell II]

Thanks Master Romy, I guess the bill color is dependent on the age of the immature atricapilla, it starts with brownish black and slowly turns lighter up to off white to white as it matures. What about the bill of punctulata?