Mindoro Bulbul?

[Edu Lorenzo Jr]

Got this guy from the Mindoro Sortie. Can't ID.

PBB?


What is throwing me off is the coloration behind the eyes and neck (in other pics it appears to have some kind of a band) also, the feathers on top of its head sometimes stands up like a mohawk.

But I did observe that it behaved and perched like a YVB. Behavior is it foraged from tree to tree in pairs.

Thanks in advance!

[Romy Ocon]

Immature Philippine Bulbul for me, Edu. Most of the confusion species are in Palawan or Mindanao. Let's wait for some concurring or dissenting opinion.

[des]

I agree with Romy, immature Mindoro Philippine Bulbul, a fair candidate for splitting to full species.
Des

[Edu Lorenzo Jr]

is this the same species sirs?


sorry for the IQ

[Toto Gamboa]

May 4, 2010 9:30:55 GMT Edu Lorenzo Jr said:

is this the same species sirs?


sorry for the IQ

The beak is a bit longer. I have shot this bird too though IQ was terrible. I thought it looked like a Tailorbird

[Ivan Sarenas]

If this later pic is from Mindoro, then yes, it is the same species. This is going to be a definite split from the Ph Bulbul complex, according to a friend whose masteral thesis was on Ph Bulbuls. No agreed common name yet, but Mindoro Bulbul most obvious.

[Edu Lorenzo Jr]

Hi Ivan, thanks for the confirmation, yes the second picture is from the same sortie.

Now all this talk about a "split" confuses this newbie.

Split is the same as.. there will be an Ixos Philippinus Mindorensis ?

[Ivan Sarenas]

A "split" is when a lumped subspecies is accorded full species status. It will not have a third name, just genus then species. The third name pertains to a subspecies if different from the second name. Some people are strict about three names like using Ixos philippinus philippinus for the common form of Ph Bulbul, but it is widely accepted to just use Ixos philippinus. Your bird is Ixos philippinus mindorensis for now, but when split, it will lose philippinus to some other name which the taxonomists decide on, speculatively the subspecies name, hence Ixos mindorensis.

[Edu Lorenzo Jr]

Thank you Ivan. I am interested in how this process happens (the process of deciding a name or splitting to a subspecies) I will do my best to contact you for a short lecture

[steve pryor]

May 4, 2010 8:59:17 GMT des said:

I agree with Romy, immature Mindoro Philippine Bulbul, a fair candidate for splitting to full species.
Des

Now being listed by the IOC as a good species, Mindoro Bulbul (Hypsipetes mindorensis). There are also other split species for Pycnonotidae which involve the Philippines, proposed on the IOC list.

They are:

Hypsipetes guimarasensis (Visayan Bulbul) - presumably monotypic, but I haven't thoroughly checked yet.

The above two would be both split from Hypsipetes philippinus, but would add two endemics if maintained.

Alophoixus frater (Palawan Bulbul) from Alophoixus [Criniger] bres (Grey-cheeked Bulbul), monotypic. This split if maintained would add another endemic to Phils.

Pycnonotus cinereifrons (Ashy-fronted Bulbul), a split from P. plumosus. It would add another endemic.

Ufficiously, I have heard rumors about other philippine pycnonotids which may be destined to elevation to specific status. E.g., some of the southern ranging taxa of the Brown-eared Bulbul (Hypsipetes [Microscelis] amaurotis) are morphologically quite significantly different from other races now associated to the species. Also, the race catarmanensis of Hypsipetes [Ixos] everetti - Yellowish Bulbul, is rather distinctive, and I have heard rumors, but nothing more.

EDIT: Oh yes, I heard something about urostictus as well, but forget exactly what it was about.

[des]

These splits derive from the paper by Carl Oliveros and Robert Moyle. The evidence rests on divergences of mtDNA and 2 nuclear genes between very small sample sizes of bulbuls - usually one or two specimens only. There is no comparison of morphology or vocalisations, for example. A much more thorough DNA study by Adriana Silva-Iturriza, Valerio Ketmaier and Ralph Tiedemann backs up significant differences between Mindoro Bulbul and the Visayan Philippine bulbul populations though. Mindoro Bulbul looks and sounds different to other Philippine bulbuls, and was described as a distinct species originally. For taxonomists other than die-hard phylogeneticists I think the jury is still out on whether to accept the splits.

[steve pryor]

Des,
Thanks for the update. I have always been a dyed-in-the-wool BSC advocate myself. I am starting to wonder who has the ear of the IOC? There are a number of putative splits that I have my doubts about. Unless we are talking about some very arcane bird groups such as Scytalopidae, I need to see large sample sizes, bootstrap values, genetic variance, and then audiometric analysis. For me, it is absolutely possible that with the excuse of homologation of avian taxonomy and nomenclature, that they are using it as a trojan horse as it were, i.e., trying to further the cause of PSC. Hope not, but it has crossed my mind a number of times.

[des]

O & M do quote morphological differences given in HBW, but guimarasensis is not obviously very different - though I admit the calls in the Tolinnis area of southern Negros are. Have you checked out Tobias et al in the latest Ibis:
Quantitative criteria for species delimitation
1 2 3 JOSEPH A. TOBIAS,1* NATHALIE SEDDON,1 CLAIRE N. SPOTTISWOODE,2 JOHN D. PILGRIM,3 4 LINCOLN D. C. FISHPOOL4 & NIGEL J. COLLAR4

[steve pryor]

Des,
No, I haven't. I allowed my subscription to run out due to my being so much out of the country the last couple of years. The last thing that I saw speaking to your point was Collar's explication contained within his Timaliidae paper in the OB publication.

[steve pryor]

May 4, 2010 15:18:05 GMT Ivan Sarenas said:

A "split" is when a lumped subspecies is accorded full species status. It will not have a third name, just genus then species. The third name pertains to a subspecies if different from the second name. Some people are strict about three names like using Ixos philippinus philippinus for the common form of Ph Bulbul, but it is widely accepted to just use Ixos philippinus. Your bird is Ixos philippinus mindorensis for now, but when split, it will lose philippinus to some other name which the taxonomists decide on, speculatively the subspecies name, hence Ixos mindorensis.

Just a small correction. If we are talking in a general sense about splitting species, then whether or not a post-split bird will have a trinomial depends on how the split was made. For example, let's say you have a species that is polytypic and has four generally recognized races. Then a split is decided upon. It can also occur that not only one race is split off. They could wind up with two good species, each one having two races associated to it. In this case, you would have trinomial scientific names.